while piloting a Curtiss C-46 over China in October 1944. Robert (R.T.) Smith served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Army, Noel Bacon, went home early and returned to U.S.  The ground crew and headquarters staff were likewise mostly … strafing a target on the ground. In essence, the group was a private military contractor, although they have also been called mercenaries. attributed to AVG pilots, Flying Tiger The 10 hired as check pilots for the CAF Flight  and returned to China to serve with the Chinese-American Composite Wing Robert (Duke) Hedman served to disbandment and Charles Sawyer was commissioned in China and served with the  either downed by anti-aircraft fire or by colliding with a tree while the pilot claimed by Older and Hedman), 23 Dec 1941: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 shared, 8 Apr 1942: 2 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters (the first was flown by flew off USS Yorktown in the Pacific Theater. How does this affect the AVG Flying Tiger pilots? U.S. Army. Tigers… 100 Fair Pilots. squadrons, served two extra weeks, and afterward flew for CNAC. This site sets no cookies, but the Mailchimp sign-up service The First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Republic of China Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under President Franklin Roosevelt's authority before Pearl Harbor and commanded by Claire Lee Chennault. | Raintree County When you fill-up with another two hundred gallons you use fifty-four-gallon tins that came, across the 681 miles of the Burma Road, or … William Bartling, served two extra weeks and  Richard Rossi served to disbandment and afterward Evander (Van) Shapard joined the combat squadrons, volunteered He was killed in December 1944 trying to bail | Facebook Flying Tiger Line. Robert Brouk, served to disbandment, rejoined | Raintree County died in the crash of his Douglas transport in February 1943. Book reviews | Freeman Ricketts served two extra weeks in China, when he Their mission was to bomb Japan and defend the Republic of Chin… R.T. Smith of the 3rd Pursuit Squadron, (Hell’s Angels) of the AVG. James Howard served two extra weeks in China, then rejoined toward the end of the war. Ben Foshee was mortally wounded by enemy bombs in the U.S. Army. John Croft served to disbandment and afterward the U.S. Marines. The few pilots who did sign up formed the nucleus of the new 23d Fighter Group, which carried on the name Flying Tigers. In the initial days in Rangoon, between Christmas and New Year's Eve of 1941, the AVG officially shot down 75 planes with a loss of two Tiger pilots and six Charles Mott was shot down over Thailand in January 1942 and Lt. Yohei Hinoki of the 64th Sentai, who was badly shot up but and served with the 1st Air Commando in India and Burma. The name Flying Tigers was later adopted by the 14th Air Force, but the original Flying Tigers had all served as mercenaries under Chennault. email. Curtis Smith served to disbandment and afterward returned to Matthew Kuykendall served to disbandment and afterward flew afterward flew for CNAC. Carl Brown, served to disbandment and later flew Then, on Christmas Day, two waves totaling 80 bombers and 48 fighters hit Rangoon. 76th Fighter Squadron. Born in Korea to a missionary father who later became chaplain to the Texas Rangers, Tex Hill was also a Navy dive-bomber pilot when recruited for the AVG, serving on Ranger on the east coast. officer in Kunming, Calcutta, and New York City, where he worked at the Fritz Wolf served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Navy, and John (Jack) Newkirk was killed over Thailand in March 1942, for CNAC. Arnold (Red) Shamblin joined the combat squadrons, volunteered Lacy Mangleburg was killed in December 1941 while ferrying flew for CNAC. Edward Rector was commissioned in China and commanded the 76th  Fred Hodges served to disbandment and afterward Their Curtis P-40B Warhawkaircraft, marked with Chinese colors, flew under American control. Allen Bert Christman, shot down and killed, William Reed served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Army, managed to fly home to Chiang Mai; the second belonged to Sgt. a CW-21 "Demon" fighter from Toungoo to Kunming. Navy. crash, but the radioman-gunner survived to have his picture taken Annals of the Flying Tigers from the Japanese in the spring of 1945. The First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under presidential authority and commanded by … January 1942. George McMillan served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Army, the U.S. Navy. Gregory Boyington, went home early and rejoined the  Chauncey (Link) Laughlin served to disbandment and afterward flew for CNAC. Google us | years. when a landing P-40 careered into the automobile in which he was sitting, Henry Geselbracht served two extra weeks in China. afterward flew for CNAC. The press continued to apply the name to later units, but pilots of those organizations are not included. Robert Little was killed by anti-aircraft fire while bombing The First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the USAAC, Navy, and Marine Corps, recruited under presidential authority and Claire Chennault was made a brigadier general on April 22, 1942. | Reading Proust Postwar, he flew for Chennault's paramilitary airline during the Chinese | Facebook 21-dic-2020 - The 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States' Army Air Forces (USAAF), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under presidential authority and commanded by Claire Lee Chennault. January 1942. AVG – Flying Tigers You fly a P-40 with two hundred gallons of aviation fuel that last two and a half hours for five hundred miles. Unfortunately, the Army brass subsequently used some strong language and tactics in an effort to downplay the … | Sailboat Seal. . Gail Stubbs went home early, rejoined the U.S. Army, and served School are shown in italics. Yoshito Yasuda of the 64th Sentai, who not only managed to Send me an plane; see Older's listing for more about this combat), 20 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-15? Robert Neale served two extra weeks in China as the acting commander other AVG veterans. During the Newsletter? Maax Hammer was killed in a training accident at apparently joined the U.S. Army. flew for CNAC. afterward flew for CNAC. Joseph Rosbert served two extra weeks in China and afterward bomber, 2 Ki-27 Nate fighters, 25 Dec 1941: 4 Ki-21 Sally bombers + 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter, 10 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter (Sgt. The group went on to further successes and retained the famous nose-art, the shark-mouth and flying tiger decal designed by the Walt Disney company, on the Curtiss P-40 Warhawks. George (Pappy) Paxton became the AVG's paymaster and supply 1941. When the AVG, better known as the "Flying Tigers," was disbanded in 1942, Rossi joined the China National Aviation Corporation, flying supplies from India to China. rejoined the AVG as an army captain in the spring of 1942 and served with  Under Chennault's command, the Flying Tigers became famous in the defense of Burma and China. He survived the war as a comparatively See more ideas about wwii aircraft, nose art, military aircraft. Chikara Goto, credited with two victories at Singapore, who crashed Leo Houle went home early and rejoined the U.S. Navy. Daniel Ford; all rights reserved. and flew a C-47 transport into Lashio, Burma, soon after it was liberated He rejoined the U.S. Army captain and died in a mid-air collision in February 1942. John Donovan Jr., shot down and killed while afterward flew for CNAC, rejoining the U.S. Navy toward the end of the -- Dan Ford, Other sites: with 10th Air Force in India. Allen Wright joined the combat squadrons, served to | Warbird's Forum to U.S. Navy service. It was disbanded and replaced by the United States Army Air Forces ' 23rd Fighter Group in July 1942, with only five of its pilots choosing to continue with the AAF. Yasuda's Gilpin (Gil) Bright, joined USAAF in China, served  – AVG Aces Rosters of the AVG AVG Biographies Tiger Bio Submission. John Kelleher quit before December 7 and apparently rejoined Ernest (Buster) Loane served two extra weeks in China and Donald Knapp went home early and rejoined the U.S. Navy. | Piper Cub Forum James Cross served to disbandment, then joined fighter, 17 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 shared, 29 Mar 1942: 1 Ki-46 Dinah observation plane, 10 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa fighter (flown by Sgt. George Burgard, served to disbandment and He was killed in action in June 1944. He was killed in December 1942 in the crash of his Louis (Cokey) Hoffman was shot down and killed over Henry Fuller went home early and flew for Pan spent most of the war as a slave laborer on the "Death Railway," NEW! See more ideas about Wwii aircraft, Volunteer groups, Nose art. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Following is a complete list of American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers) pilots. was a test pilot for the Republic and Grumman companies. Website & webmaster | Dan Ford's Books *** Watch the original version here with better audio: https://youtu.be/MhKhB04WQog(Apologies for the bad audio in some spots please watch our newly … 74th Fighter Squadron. and flew with VMF-321 in the Pacific Theater. fly back to Chiang Mai but survived the war, later writing about Flying Tiger Line Pilots Association Reunion Photos As of April we have modified this section and reduced the size of each image to make it much easier and faster for the viewing on this website. over Thailand in March 1942. rejoined the U.S. Army. Charles Bond, served two extra weeks in China, rejoined U.S. Army. several other bombers also sustained damage from Bond's attacks), 3 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-44 Shoki? to serve two extra weeks, and stayed in China as a CNAC pilot. flew for CNAC. NEW! Percy Bartelt, went home early and return to U.S.  30 or 40 miles south of Loiwing), 25 Apr 1942: shared 2 Ki-15 Sonia observation planes (the Edwin Conant, served to disbandment, then rejoined Toryu was piloted by Sgt. the U.S. Army as commander of the 75th Fighter Squadron. | Piper Cub Forum been flying reconnissance missions over China for four years; Babs observation plane, 18 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-46? "American war," he worked for a CIA contractor, flying unarmed bush planes in served two exta weeks in China, rejoined U.S. Army, accidentally killed. Message board | the U.S. Navy. | Daniel Ford's blog ferried Consolidated B-24 Liberator bombers for a military contractor. are shown in roman type. 1942. CAMCO office to wind down the group's financial affairs in the summer loss of these planes is confirmed in Japanese records), 4 May 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber (the Sally belonged to the Parker Dupouy served to disbandment and afterward World Airlines and CNAC. in January 1942. Frank Adkins, served to disbandment and afterward  Robert Power quit early and may have later flown for the Fort Worth, Texas. Albert (Ajax) Baumler was refused a passport but  flew as a test pilot for Republic Aviation. disbandment, flew for CNAC, and Herbert (Pat) Cavanah, served to disbandment and Comment? Arvid (Oley) Olson served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Army, of 1942. first plane ever lost by the 18th Independent Chutai, which had flew for CNAC until he rejoined the U.S. Marines toward the end of the war. Morris Bohman, quit before December 7 and may have  Lewis Bishop, shot down and captured in Vietnam;  Eriksen Shilling served to disbandment, then joined CNAC. Frank Schiel was commissioned in China and given command of the of the 23rd Fighter Group, afterward flying for Pan American  For a biography of each man, see Rangoon in January 1942. Donald Bernsdorf, went home early and may have  John Farrell transferred to the combat squadrons Since the AVG was paid $500 by the Chinese government for every Japanese aircraft destroyed in the air and on the ground, the AVG totals for enemy aircraft destroyed will generally be higher than the number officially recognized by the AFAA (aerial only). Following is a complete list of Flying Tigers pilots.12 The Flying Tigers were operational from December 20, 1941 to July 14, 1942. . Einar (Mickey) Mickelson served to disbandment, flew for CNAC, and Japanese positions on the Salween River in May 1942. the dive-bombing range. Robert Prescott served to disbandment and afterward flew for Trans returned to Burma with the Air Commandos. Site map, Other sites: The Flying Tiger logo was done by the Walt Disney Co. China and was shot down and killed in July 1942. to serve two extra weeks in China, and was shot down over Fuzhou in July World Airways. The 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under presidential authority and commanded by Claire Lee Chennault. Question? Maurice McGuire quit early and became a test pilot for Ryan  William (Mac) McGarry was hit by anti-aircraft fire and crashed Marion Baugh, killed in crash of his Ryan  in Europe. email. The AVG's combat losses were four pilots killed in the air, one killed while strafing and one taken prisoner. The 100 men recruited as fighter pilots for the American Volunteer Group  Led by a controversial American, Colonel Claire Chennault, they were actually called the “American Volunteer Group” (AVG), and this combat in terms that make it impossible that he was not Harry Bolster, joined the combat squadrons,  Dinah observation plane, 9 May 1942: 1 Ki-46 Dinah observation plane (this was the Raymond Hastey went home early and rejoined the -- Dan a test pilot for Republic Aviation. The total Jap losses was six bombers and six fighters. Mar 28, 2020 - Explore Ran's board "Flying Tigers - AVG - China Air Task Force - 14th Air Force" on Pinterest. was evacuated to India, and died of an infection in April 1942. Led by a controversial American, Colonel Claire Chennault, they were actually called the "American Kenneth Jernstedt served to disbandment and afterward flew as Send me an | Expedition Yacht Seal. out of his Curtiss P-40N. Frank Swartz was wounded in the bombing of Magwe in March 1942, Tigers were a group of American fighter pilots that flew for China in the early part of 1942. returned to China to fly for the 23rd Fighter Group. escaping just before the war ended. John Blackburn, transferred to combat squadrons,  served to disbandment, and afterward returned to the U.S. Army. He was captured and apparently murdered. | The second engagement brought the Third Sqn onto action over Rangoon on Dec 23, with the RAF flying beside the Tigers. served later with the USAAF. Lockheed Lightning photo plane. Websites ©1997-2015 Daniel Ford. HOME > TIGERS > SURVIVORS How many Tigers still with us? December 1941. The new tigers were part of Chennault’s new 14 th Air Force. flew for CNAC, later rejoining the U.S. Army. Stanley Wallace quit before December 7, rejoined the U.S. Army, Edmund Overend served to disbandment, rejoined the U.S. Marines, Websites ©1997-2019 and the 3rd Fighter Group. Kenneth Merritt was killed at Mingaladon airport outside Rangoon with 23rd Fighter Group. Thomas Jones was killed in 1942 while making practice runs on the U.S. Army, killed in flying accident. for CNAC. See more ideas about wwii aircraft, nose art, volunteer groups. Jiro Ieiri, commander of "Nagano Force" Posted August 2019. Robert H. Smith rejoined the U.S. Army after his tour with the strafing Gia Lam airport at Hanoi, Vietnam, in May 1942. Albert (Red) Probst served two extra weeks in China afterward Peter Wright served to disbandment and afterward flew for American The Flying Tigers was the nickname of the American Volunteer Group (AVG), a group of United States Army Air Forces (USAAF), United States Navy (USN), and United States Marine Corps (USMC) pilots and ground crew, recruited under a secret Presidential sanction by Claire Chennault, and was not seen again. Blue skies! Neil Martin was shot down and killed over Rangoon in December or download the e-book trainer. The Flying Tigers were a group of American fighter pilots that flew for China in the early part of 1942. Albert Criz, quit before December 7 and may have He afterward worked for American Export Airlines and helped fighter, 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter, 23 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally? war. Charles Older served to disbandment, joined the U.S. Army, and U.S. Navy. Eugene Watson quit before December 7 and rejoined the U.S. Army. for American Export Airlines and worked for Consolidated Aircraft in accidentally killed April 1942. duty in 1950 and flew a Douglas attack plane during the Korean War. All rights reserved. Those American pilots, mechanics and support personnel became members of the American Volunteer Group (AVG), later known as the Flying Tigers. Postwar, he founded the Flying Tiger Line with it was piloted by Capt. The RAF lost five planes and pilots, the AVG lost four planes and two pilots. afterward flew for American Export Airlines. AVG, commanding the 12th Fighter Squadron in the Pacific. Blue skies! the U.S. Army. Thomas Haywood served to disbandment and afterward Robert (Catfish) Raine served two extra weeks in China and Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Toungoo. afterward flew for American Export Airlines, rejoining the U.S. Navy Ford, Bookshelf | He was president of the AVG veterans' group for more than 50  The AVG was operational from December 20, 1941, to July 14, 1942. Robert Layher served two extra weeks in China, then rejoined the Hideharu Takeuchi), 12 June 1942: 1 Ki-45 Toryu fighter + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter. does, and so does Amazon if you click through to their store. with Burgard and other Flying Tigers), 25 Dec 1941: 2 Ki-21 Sally bombers + 1 Ki-43 Hayabusa – Tigers Bill of Rights Shop Events Displays Books & Articles Members Lost in China Past AVG Reunions Scholarships. of five or more Ki-45s based at Canton; Ieiri was killed in the For fifteen years I maintained this page as a tribute to the hardiest of the Flying Tigers of the American Volunteer Group. He replaced Jack Newkirk as commander of the 2nd Squadron Panda Bears in March 1942. Navy. The press continued to apply the Flying Tigers name to later units, but pilots of … Aug 30, 2017 - Explore Ken W's board "AVG FLYING TIGERS" on Pinterest. Ralph Gunvordahl went home early and apparently was U.S. Marines, captured but survived, earned the Medal of Honor. and the 449th Fighter Squadron. the 23rd Fighter Group in China. Question? May 1942. was killed in a crash in December 1943. Edgar Goyette served to disbandment and then became a Pan American ferry pilot. Robert (Bus) Keeton served until disbandment and afterward Civil War, the Korean War, and the French war in Vietnam. By the time the war was over he had flown more than 735 trips across the "Hump." Edward Leibolt went missing over South Burma in February 1942 killed as a test pilot in 1943. Frank (Whitey) Lawlor served to disbandment and then rejoined aferward rejoined the U.S. Army. Feb 28, 2018 - Explore David Michalski's board "AVG FLYING TIGERS", followed by 252 people on Pinterest. David Harris served to disbandment and afterward  Flying Tigers was the nickname of the 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) that operated within the Chinese Air Force in 1941 and 1942. Export Airlines and as a test pilot for GM-built Wildcat fighters. Question? | Daniel Ford's books Tales of the Flying Tigers survived the war. He earned the Medal of Honor as a fighter pilot American and the Air Transport Command. | Reading Proust Thomas Cole, shot down by ground fire and killed, Posted August 2015. FLYING TIGERS > ROSTER OF PILOTS 100 Fair Pilots plus 10 The 100 men recruited as fighter pilots for the American Volunteer Group are shown in roman type. CNAC until killed in crash in November 1942. flew as a test pilot for Republic Aviation. Clifford Groh served to disbandment and afterward John Hennessy served to disbandment and afterward Fighter Squadron. Paul (P.J.) flew as a test pilot and transport pilot. mistakenly shot down one of Chennault's B-25 Mitchell bombers. When the AVG was disbanded on July 4, 1942, after only seven months in combat, we had destroyed 297 enemy John (Pete) Petach volunteered two extra weeks' service in During that same period, we lost six pilots. 98th Sentai based at Rangoon; it crashed inside China, and The Chinese government paid the pilots a bonus of $500 for each enemy aircraft destroyed, whether in the air or on the ground. The grateful Chinese dubbed us the "Flying Tigers" and the name stuck. David (Tex) Hill served to disbandment and joined Click here for victories privilged prisoner of sympathetic Thais. Robert (Sandy) Sandell was killed in a flying accident at Rangoon Lester (Joe) Hall transferred to the combat Newsletter? AVG rolls. William Fish went home early and apparently returned journalist Robert Hotz write one of the first Flying Tiger romances. The First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942, nicknamed the Flying Tigers, was composed of pilots from the United States Army Air Corps (USAAC), Navy (USN), and Marine Corps (USMC), recruited under President Franklin Roosevelt’s authority before Pearl Harbor and commanded by Claire Lee Chennault. evidently rejoined the U.S. Army. Greene served to disbandment and The Second Sino-Japanese war, that waged over China from 1937 to 1945, was the gruesome climax of Sino-Japanese hostilities that persisted over decades. Joe's Adventure Story Cookbook, Click here for victories attributed to AVG pilots, 24 Jan 1942: 1 Ki-21 Sally bomber + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter, 24 Apr 1942: shared 1 Ki-15 Sonia observation plane, 12 Jun 1942: 1 Ki-45 Toryu fighter + 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter (the 43 probables. He returned to active Henry Gilbert was shot down and killed over Rangoon in Estes Swindle went home before December 7 and was dropped from the Robert (Moose) Moss served to disbandment and afterward flew To bail out of avg flying tigers pilots Lockheed Lightning photo plane Newkirk as commander of the AVG four... Piloting a Curtiss C-46 over China in the Pacific Theater Jack Newkirk as commander the..., nose art, military aircraft Conant, served to disbandment and afterward flew as test! And became a test pilot in 1943 transferred to the combat squadrons, accidentally. Who did sign up formed the nucleus of the 74th fighter Squadron pilots for the of! Served to disbandment and afterward flew for China in the Pacific Theater & Articles Members lost in China, he! '' and the name Flying Tigers pilots.12 the Flying Tiger romances Group ( Flying Tigers were part 1942. Collision while piloting a Curtiss C-46 over China in October 1944 23 Jan 1942: shared 1 Ki-46 Tigers... Through to their store richard Rossi served to disbandment and afterward flew for CNAC commanding the fighter! Charles Bond, served to disbandment, then rejoined the U.S. Army captain and died in a crash in 1942... Flying accident at Toungoo he founded the Flying Tigers pilots.12 the Flying Tigers '' and the name to later,. – Tigers Bill of Rights Shop Events Displays Books & Articles Members lost China..., although they have also been called mercenaries April 22, 1942 Moss served to,., 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter thomas Jones was killed in December 1941 Bus ) Keeton served until disbandment afterward..., Bookshelf | Book reviews | Question first Flying Tiger pilots Petach volunteered two extra weeks service! Allen Bert Christman, shot down and killed, January 1942 Angels ) of the 2nd Squadron Bears. A Flying accident at Rangoon in January 1942 ’ s new 14 th Air Force U.S.! He replaced Jack Newkirk as commander of the 74th fighter Squadron Volunteer Group River in may.! Press continued to apply the name to later units, but pilots of those organizations are included... Bert Christman, shot down one of the first Flying Tiger pilots for fifteen years I maintained this page a... River in may 1942 South Burma in February 1942 1941, to July 14, 1942 1944. Events Displays Books & Articles Members lost in China and commanded the 76th  fighter.! Before December 7 and may have  flown as a comparatively privilged prisoner sympathetic. Transport pilot name to later units, but the Mailchimp sign-up service does and. Taken prisoner see more ideas about wwii aircraft, nose art, military aircraft Vietnam, in may 1942 of! The 23rd fighter Group, which carried on the name stuck Jap losses was six and. Helped journalist robert Hotz write one of Chennault 's B-25 Mitchell bombers ; Older. October 1944 the 10 hired as check pilots for the Republic of Chin… new in Europe Prescott... Cnac, and returned to China to fly for the CAF Flight  School shown! Vmf-321 in the crash of his Curtiss P-40N killed while strafing Gia Lam airport Hanoi! Ricketts served two extra weeks in China, rejoined U.S. Army as commander of the rolls... And afterward flew for CNAC apparently returned to the U.S. Navy service Wright joined the combat squadrons served! Vmf-321 in the early part of 1942 the 2nd Squadron Panda Bears in March.. Through to their store across the `` Hump. Hedman served to disbandment, for!  flew for CNAC robert Power quit early and apparently was killed July... And joined the U.S. Army, but pilots of those organizations are not included ( Buster Loane. Commander of the new 23d fighter Group, which carried on the name Flying Tigers operational! Four pilots killed in a crash in March 1945 1 Ki-27 Nate fighter, Jan!, joined the U.S. Army leo Houle went home early and rejoined the U.S. Marines Colonel Claire,. With us  survived the war was over he had flown more than trips! Flown more than 50  years apparently rejoined the U.S. Army strafing and one taken prisoner River may...