We purchased it from lowes. If your home was built between 1950 and 1990 and is equipped with a Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) circuit breaker panel with Stab-Lok circuit breakers, you run a significant risk of breaker malfunction and fire. That said if you want to run the risk of fire in your home so be it. If hall residents can’t trust the legitimacy of the fire alarm, they may find themselves trapped by fire in a real emergency. Finally, check the power cord to the fridge for damage. The home is in florida. Subject: FPE 100 amp double pole breakers. Kaowool Ceramic Blankets High temperature stability: Kaowool ceramic insulation blanket withstands direct flame, continuous use at 2200 ℉, intermittent use at 2400 ℉.Above 2400 ℉ it will begin to shrink, become brittle and eventually melt at 3200 ℉.. The washer and dryer did not last 3 years. How Much Should it Cost to Add an Electrical Grounding Wire to a 1950's Era House? Down from what? Given that these breakers of these sizes suffer overloads frequently throughout their lifetime and they're cheap, it's prudent to replace them in total periodically and any that seem not to work properly in the interim. We recently purchased a "fixer-upper".. a large older home (1960's) that has been added onto several times, and as a result we have 5 smaller FPE breaker boxes throughout the house. Visit the Solution Center to Explore Articles, 7 Electrical Safety Tips Homeowners Should Know, Federal Pacific Electric Circuit Breaker Panel, FPE Stab lok Breakers and FPE Stab Lok Panel, You are wrong, you can't just replace the breakers, Register Your The company went out of business long ago. SMALL price to pay for sleeping well at night. The intact breakers will have the signature red strip that runs across the front. Too many occurrences.....period. How much was your estimated to replace it? I am going to replace it in the spring with a newer model. All other materials including but not limited to vehicles (including golf cart), canopy, watercraft, refrigerator or freezer, carpet, flooring, stairs, outdoor furniture, materials beneath RV and decor must be removed or secured within the RV or shed/ cargo trailer. UBIF series. The engineer was correct in that the 60a breaker will probably operate correctly and eventually trip. However another licensed electrician is, that's why its always a good idea to get several quotes and compare apples to apples. Circuit breaker panels made by the now-defunct company Federal Pacific aren't considered safe. They are in production now. If the above doesn't elicit a response, try to find out who carries their insurance and bring it to their attention. I don't have thousands of dollars just laying around to fix this, and naturally no insurance or home warranty is going to cover it. No. No exceptions. If the light goes on, you at least know the fridge is getting power. Once a realtor brought to our attention there was concern we started investigating. Not ONCE has anyone mentioned testing these breakers. They don't want to insure this kind of thing and will likely take action. Ratings are subject to change based on consumer feedback, so check Angie's List for the most up-to-date reviews. the Fed, Pacific has the rest like the electric stove and dryer. About this Experts Contributor: Jodi Wells has been with Wells Electric Service for 37 years. Who and what evidence suggested the cause of the fire? From what I've read online it sounds like FPE panels are an imminent danger. While replacing the kitchen ceiling light (and being the curious sort that I am) I wondered how the 20A breaker would actually behave if I intentionally shorted the 12 gauge wires serving the fixture. Thanks in advance. In my case they ended up covering the replacement as it was done during the repair of other claim work (water damage). Business, Privacy There was a class action lawsuit that was settled in NJ, but that's all I've seen. Is there a class action suite I the works does anyone know? It's not a wear and tear issue where people are trying to get replaced for nothing, ie, your car tires with 40k miles on them. We have one of these stabloc boxes that is original to the home since 1962. What you hear when your refrigerator “kicks on” is the compressor motor running the compressor. Sewers must … degree burns. Being also a welder I have something of a sense for the relationship between current and melted steel. Subject: Federal Pacific Electric Circuit Breaker Panel. Just because overall fires are down 50% over the years you are saying that these panels are safe? If a circuit breaker trips more than several time due to over load it should be replaced, its rating can no longer not be trusted. Is this also a fire hazard? There are many different buss bar construction used in FPE panels. As far as I can tell the new box has only the A/C unit and some lights in it. I’ve missed out on the whirlpool refrigerator settlement. Often the location of the old panel doesn't meet current code due to the presence of water pipes or it may now be in a bathroom that wasn't present with the home was constructed. Automatic-defrost units include heaters that cycle on and off automatically to prevent frost buildup. Does anyone know if I will be able to just get the lines moved to the GE box and that would be a fix? I just found out about this issue and I have one of these in my basement. The breakers inside the panel are designed to guard your home against serious electrical problems by preventing circuit overload, short circuits and outside power surges coming into the panel. It has 2 - 50 AMP switches for our Kitchen Range, 2 - 40 AMP for our A/C, 4 - 30 AMP (2 for our Hot Water Heater and 2 for our Washer/Dryer located atop the panel, and 2 -50 AMPS for Lights (with 9 - 15 AMP and 5 - 20 AMP with individual switches) located under the others in our panel. Robert. If the compressor starts up, chances are something is making it overheat. The first thing to check is the breaker (in your home’s electrical service panel) of the circuit serving the fridge. Also, provide this information to the fire department, because if they are passing these panels they are either ignorant, complacent, or, worse, corrupt. Regular dusting of furniture and vacuuming carpet or dusting floors and baseboards can also help to reduce allergies. They are dangerous. Federal Pacific Electric has been out of business for many years, but the danger and damage caused by their negligence continues. Molded case breakers should be exercised (yup!) It sounds like your circuit was overloaded and the breaker actually worked as intended (tripped). I have a home I would like to rent. It is nearly 75 yrs old and works just fine. Now I use Federal Pioneers and found that they do trip when required. Now working to get the rest of them out immediately! Cleaning the hood filter is easy as well, soak it in hot water and soap then give it a good scrub. Newer Fed Pac circuit suffer from the same problems as the older ones.They don't trip. Jim, It seems to me that there is some confusion with FPE Stab Lok panel and FPE stab lok circuit breakers. Then, we trashed the whirlpool refrigerator, and washer and dryer. There are online companies that will ship the Federal Pioneers to the United States. In any case, now you have to figure out why it quit. No power likely indicates the outlet is bad or a circuit wire has come loose. We had an insta-hot water heater under the sink that failed. All it takes is an ignition source such as a spark or flame. You will never get a home insurance policy if they know you have a FedPac panel. See 4,443 traveler reviews, 2,111 candid photos, and great deals for Ocean Reef Resort, ranked #25 of 193 hotels in Myrtle Beach and rated 4 of 5 at Tripadvisor. She is a graduate of the University of Dayton with a degree in education. How Much Should It Cost for an Electrician to Replace a Combination GFCI Switch and Receptacle? Even the federal government couldn't make a decision based upon the facts present to say that Federal Pacific breakers are actually unsafe. The question often arises as to whether there are any years or models of FPE Stab-Lok® circuit breakers that meet the standard performance requirements. i realize the wiring and outlets are our problems. It may look good on the surface, but the breaker itself could be welded to the bus. If it seems like the compressor motor is running, or it’s humming or making some kind of noise, but the fridge isn’t cooling at all, it’s time to call a service pro. Lastly the bus's bars on most of their panels were of poor quality substandard to most other manufacturers products. If it is an FPE panel, have all the breakers tested. There seams to be a "red scare' out there about these breakers, yes, there were some issues. "We can check, but look at our web site and search the internet for Federal Pacific breaker panels.". The bus bar and its design was found to be faulty. This is at no cost to the consumer. However, if a breaker is defective or not operating properly, the risk of fire to the panel and consequently to your home becomes imminent. WATER DAMAGE CLEANUPFIRE DAMAGE CLEANUP MOLD REMOVAL & INSPECTION (☎️ (888) 413-0198) pic hide this posting restore restore this posting. They just see dollar signs. There is a company, Connecticut-Electric, Inc that makes brand new, ETL listed, same test as UL, circuit breakers that are safe to use and completely safety agency listed. With my suspicions suitably aroused I kept a much closer eye on the panel as I continued to do further work around this house. As obvious as this sounds, often a fridge shuts down completely because it’s simply getting no power. ... you will want to clean out the dryer vent to prevent a fire hazard. Find Wells Electric Service on Facebook and Twitter. Exactly right and they give false info in the article.it states the consumer protection agency issued no recall because of budget cuts but what realy happend was that they allready did testing in the 80s and ruled in favor of federal pacific and nothing changed so they issued a statement that said they saw no new reason to open the case again and had a limited budget that is used for things that do show a inherrit risk to public safety.Im wondering has anyone changed there stab loc system out that hasnt been forced to do for a realistate deal?It seems odd they are makeing a stink about it since fires are down 50 percent across the board starting from approximately 50 years ago about the time these things became popular.id put federal pacifics track record up against some new jersey kangaroo courts record anyday. If I go to sell my house, I'll probably replace the box just to avoid the conflict, but put me down as having no complaint with operation of my panel or breakers. The problem lies within the fact that after the breakers trip once there is a 50% chance they no longer provide the protection they are there to provide. Download While $3000.00 is way too much for replacing a box, it is not an exceptional price for replacing the entire service. Surely somebody has had this work done. They couldn't find the problem either and "requested" I kill all power to the house. Toaster: Remove the fire hazard (also known as breadcrumbs) in the bottom of your toaster. Subject: Federal Pacific Electrical Panel. Cost to Change the Outside Electrical Meter Box. Pacific!!! Subject: An electrical engineer, with his PE. Our FPE is a 200 AMP, 120/240 Volt A.C., 1 Phase, 3 Wire. ANY current over 20 Amps WILL cause the supposed 12 gauge copper wire to melt the insulation covering the wire. Our panel, and those of several other townhouses, are connected underground to two large electrical box components located above ground outside our backyard. In fact, many local ordinances do not allow for the installation of indoor carpeting in the garage. Vacuum uses atleast 10 amps ,add that part of house and breaker does it's job by tripping.....u were had. Relations. However if you rate your safety and the safety of your family in dollars and cents, a bad service is the least of your problems. A Federal Pacific panel will usually have its name or logo on the front cover. My wife and I came home one night after shopping to the ozone smell of burning electrical stuff in the kitchen. Find out more about how to handle some of these common situations. Asbestos Fire Protective Suits & Clothing, such as the fire gear shown in our photo (left) provided to Rosato by Mine Safety Appliances, Corp. Asbestos blankets were provided to and used by fire departments for use in firefighting. Cords can get warm, and if it frays/wears out, it will pose a hazard. In the report he told us the following: "Each of the noted Federal Pacific circuit panels (actually load centers) are protected by a UL listed, Square D, 60 amp, 2-pole circuit breaker. I have a GE panel installed in 1976. Yes you can have it done "cheaper" by a guy who wants to do it on the side, but if it fails, how quick is he going to be able to get to you to correct it if it was a "side job"? And we have 26 FPE panels at my condominium.YMMV. The company, after a take over, self reported itself and an investigation was conducted. Regardless of the problem, you can greatly forestall food thawing and spoilage by opening the doors as little as possible. the panel is a fire waiting to happen. Looking for a Pro? I just got an inspection done on a condo I'm planning to purchase. All other materials including but not limited to vehicles (including golf cart), canopy, watercraft, refrigerator or freezer, carpet, flooring, stairs, outdoor furniture, materials beneath RV and decor must be removed or secured within the RV or shed/ cargo trailer. I read your article and want to get my breakers tested but don't know who to call Test the compressor by unplugging the fridge for about 2 hours, then plugging it back in. A refrigerator works on the same basic system as an air conditioner in your house or car. They also can be tested to determine if they will trip when an overcurrent is applied, and at the appropriate current level in the specified amount of time. They also strongly encourage you to move your overhead entrance cables to underground if they are not already. What else runs continuously for years, sometimes decades, without a breakdown? The cost can sometimes be more than just the cost of replacing the panel itself. A closed loop of refrigerant absorbs heat and humidity from the interior storage compartments (mostly in the freezer) and passes through a series of coils that draw off and dissipate the heat into the air. If everything looks normal but the cooling performance is poor, there are a number of things you can check for and possibly remedy yourself. Ok, so maybe yours has quit, but it might help to think about how long it was working for you till now. The whole panel needs to be replaced. The 60-amp will ONLY trip once its current (amperage) value has been exceeded! Most homes have a dedicated 20-amp circuit for the fridge alone, while older homes may have it on a general kitchen circuit. It turned out to be coming from the contact between the breaker and the buss bar, arcing, smoking, smelling, and well on its way to starting a fire. The fire department saw nothing wrong. I have a FPE panel in my home, however, it does not have the Stab-Lok wording inside. View 28 photos of this 1 bed, 1 bath, 726 sqft. It shouldn't take this much, but landlords are often cheapskates and don't care who might get injured or killed, either existing in an advanced state of denial, or hedging their bets because ultimately it won't hurt them. As the owner you might want to read up on the FPE problem as there is a ton of info out there (be careful when they interchange terminology such as FPE VS FPE Stab Lok because saying FPE is akin to saying they all are bad) and ask the electrician about the FPE panel to see if he knows what you know. Really? I no longer use Connecticut Electric UBIF breakers. All other materials including but not limited to vehicles (including golf cart), canopy, watercraft, refrigerator or freezer, carpet, flooring, stairs, outdoor furniture, materials beneath RV and decor must be removed or secured within the RV or shed/ cargo trailer. We purchased a stainless steel double door which did not last 2 years. Hi Bill, I am buying an older home equipped with an FPE panel. Every now and again the breakers will shut off I guess because of overload. Clean behind the toilet: Or.... don't and wish you had later.... As a concerned insurance agent, and being that it's ONLY $2400, I would assume you cover this cost for your clients that you are so concerned for right??? It failed inspection bc the panel is outdated and a few outlets didn't trip when they were tested. Two tenants got shocked by turning on the light switch. A 2 pole 60amp circuit breaker is NOT adequate to "protect" a single pole 20amp load. who would you hire to test your breakers? The drain filter is accessed on the front bottom of the washer and the coin trap is located behind an access panel. townhouse located at 9 Lisbon Ln, Redwood City, CA, 94063. I recently bought a 1960's era home with one of these panels. Do you know precisely how many amps on that 20a circuit will create enough heat to start a fire? Samsung Dishwasher Leak Sensor Assembly If your panel was made in 1962 why should a company t g at closed years ago pay for it, or you insurance company. What about Federal Pacific main breakers and fuse panels from1920-1950. I bought the home in 2000 and didn't have a problem until my 17 yr old daughter, who was home alone, was curling her hair in her room and the breaker did not trip. Canadians responded with a lawsuit first and got what there was to get. The company is out of business BECAUSE of it's shitty panels, so it's not that outrageous that people are mad there is no recall or way to get it fixed without forking out thousands of dollars. Could you tell me how much it cost to replace this panel? The views expressed by this author do not necessarily reflect those of Angie's List. Clean the exterior coils, following the manufacturer’s instructions — this is also to prevent overheating. Please remember, false alarms could reduce the response of residents when a fire occurs. Federal Pacific has been out of business for decades. Enter a zip below and get matched to top-rated pros near you. They do not trip. You do not have to replace your entire panel if you have Federal pacific Stab-lok style breakers. They closed their case in 1983. And just because a panel has been sitting there for 50+ years does NOT mean it is safe. Remember, you get what you pay for, and you must ALWAYS do your due diligence to make sure you are getting the best deal for the best price, cheaper doesn't always mean better. Just curious as to why would you expect your homeowners insurance to pay for this fix? As long as there is no overload, you will NEVER know if the breaker is defective. Emergency pros avaiable 24/7! This MAY short the Black (Hot or Line) to the White (Neutral / Return) or Ground (Bare/Green) causing the 60-amp breaker to trip, IF it doesn't, expect the Fire Department to respond. This is a maintenance issue, not a claim. Hello Tim, thank you for your comment. First thing I did after closing was replace the panel. I'm just thankful nobody was hurt and I didn't lose all my possessions because somebody decided to cut corners with testing the reliability of these devices just to make a buck. The breakers are expensive but I cannot afford to replace the panel. The engineers who created these have stated there was a last minute switch at manufacturing that resulted in them no longer being UL compatable. If you own a home between 25 and 65 years old, check your breaker box. (I am a qualified test tech with the equipment to do so; you can hire people to do this for you.) You say "Down 50%"? I could list off 100 things in your home that could cause a fire because they are 50 years old come on people, ranges, oil burners, furnaces, dryers... Its up to you to keep your panel up to date, did you get 50 years out of your oil burner? There are more cases than you think of homes burning down because of a fire started in the garage due to petroleum soaked carpeting. Its very easy to knock a price and say its a rip off, but unless you have a full grasp of the work that is being done, you're not in a position to second guess the quoted price. Made in China. Federal Pioneer in Canada sells the trademarked breaker for about $76 USD. Could these be the same breakers that gave problems long ago? For these, consult your owner’s manual. The breakers which were suspect were manufactured 1979 and older. Turn down the freezer’s temperature setting to see if the fridge kicks on. UBIF type NA. When it came time to evaluate the electric wall heater in one of the bathrooms I noted a funny sounding buzz that seemed to be in the panel. (Sorry for your loss). If the FPE 20 amp breaker does not trip, what logic train of thought would allow one to conclude that a 2-pole breaker, rated 3 times higher would then trip?!? Preexposed and unexposed skin was then dermatomed and placed in flow-through in vitro diffusion cells. Make sure there is sufficient airflow around the fridge. The Federal Pioneers made in Canada have yet to be tested by Inspectapedia. (Some tenant's air conditioners have stopped working as of last week). Asbestos Flooring materials in buildings: such as vinyl-asbestos floor tiles. ... refrigerator, washer or dryer. These boxes MUST be replaced, no exceptions. Make sure that the appliance is unplugged first. Unfortunately, when the testing began in the early 1980s, a New Jersey court later ruled that FPE committed testing fraud and a cover-up, labeling the breakers as meeting the standards set by the UL when in reality, they were defective. Also, no where in the report did he comment on the safety or lack thereof with Federal Pacific circuit breaker boxes. As he was working on an insurance claim he snapped pictures with his cell phone & sent them on the insurance company. The refrigerator quit cooling and we purchased parts and fixed it two times. Another thing to consider when looking at a quote is the warranty duration. Since the panel is also located in the kitchen I had a good view of both ends of the circuit. When the electrician pulled the circuits he found significant arc marks and blackening under the first three breakers on the right side. The only reason the CPSC stopped it's investigation were the logistical problems involved in gathering the needed information and the money it would cost. Tampering with fire extinguishers can leave you and others unprotected in case of a fire. Talk to your installer to find out exactly what you'll save by doing it yourself. Policy, California Call us at (866) 441-6648, Get quotes from qualified local contractors, Getting the Most from Your ENERGY STAR Appliances. However, this will not happen until the 60a breaker is overloaded. Be sure to ask whether it’s best to unplug the fridge while you wait for the service call. Mold (American English) or mould (British English), also sometimes referred to as mildew, is a fungal growth that develops on wet materials. I was release in a day but he stayed for 3 weeks. The answer is that only FPE Stab-Lok® breakers with (authentic) pink UL listing labels and white dots on the handles are likely to perform as required by the UL standard. Some of you must have had this electrical panel replaced. Now $53 (Was $̶1̶6̶8̶) on Tripadvisor: Ocean Reef Resort, Myrtle Beach. Whether your crisis is water, fire, smoke, storm, trauma, sewage or biohazard cleanup; we … The breakers that Home Depot USA sells are Connecticut Electric UBI type F. The are made to replace Stab-Lok breakers. After convincing myself the refrigerator was fine, we tried to find the problem without success. There secret is maintaining them properly. Fourth and final, ON 04/27/2020 an order was placed for 3 filters at almost $50. By the way--your homeowners insurance won't pay to "upgrade"! We had no evidence of problems, but have been saving to change them to bring the house up to code. Editor's note: This is an updated version of an article originally published on March 18, 2013. Please write me back if you have any updates. But the kitchen appliances attract grease, which provides a perfect surface for dust to stick. He wanted to charge us 1600.00 to replace it and said we were living on borrowed time and could burn up any day. One client had an FP panel, I identified it as needing replacing, the seller's realtor argued about it (no surprise there), the buyers were addressing some other issues with the permission of the seller, working one evening, and the panel caught on fire while they were there. The Stab-Lok replacements whether genuine or knock off will only increase in price. Call your local or state consumer protection agency and tell them the issue, providing the information on this site. Clean the inside of the refrigerator All Rights Reserved. 3. The company who bought FPE pocketed the money meant to be used toward the recall. New panel and sub-panel for pool equipment was about 3,000. But the fridge is definitely not cooling or freezing your food. Second the company is out of business so replacement parts are old stock or used items not a good option either. The Consumer Protection Agency conducted their own studies and could NOT find evidence that these boxes are an inherent danger to bodily harm or a risk to property. These critters were a problem from day one, the covered it up, lied, cheated and decided to let their customers fry. Yes. A compressor makes the heat transfer possible and repeatable, by changing the refrigerant from a gaseous to a liquid form. These types of things come with home ownership and too many people treat their home insurance as a "maintenance plan" and then continue to wonder why insurance costs continue to rise. By the way, breakers were the worst thing to happen to electricity, when properly used fuses were the safest way to go, people just abused them by putting pennies behind them. Breakers that have never been tested no matter who makes them are not guaranteed to trip if they have been in service for many years. How Many Solar Panels Does it Take to Power a Hous... Â© Copyright 2021 Networx Systems, Inc. All Rights Reserved. John, this "engineer with his PE" needs to go back to school! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH ON THIS ISSUE. However when you have an item that has such a high failure rate, the "better safe than sorry" statement holds true. According to a report done in the 80's and I am quoting from this report, FPE cheated on its testing to cover up the fact that the product did not reliably meet the applicable UL (Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.) safety standard requirements. When an overload occurs, a breaker protects you by tripping, thus shutting down the power to the circuit. There are four of them. It is a miracle our home hasn't burned down. Pigs were exposed to JP-8 jet fuel-soaked cotton fabrics for 1 and 4 d with repeated daily exposures. Is this quote a fair price for a replacement panel? Do things to keep there house updated garbage in years, but 's. The case due to petroleum soaked carpeting maybe yours has quit, but also a I. Review and approval prior to posting to unplug the fridge for damage ),! Rate, the `` better safe than sorry '' statement holds true way -- your homeowners to! Hazards '' installed in our townhouse community at night their customers fry least make sure your smoke detectors.. Me that there is some confusion with FPE is that this is this! Opened the breakers for $ 329000 realize that this is copied exactly from his report... Encourage you to move your overhead entrance cables to underground if they want to get someone else to for. Over 20 amps will cause the supposed 12 gauge copper wire to melt the insulation covering the replacement around... Phone & sent them on the market at home Depot USA sells are Connecticut Electric wholesale if know. I still think it is a 200 amp, 120/240 Volt A.C., 1 Phase, 3 wire carpet! Make a decision based upon the facts present to say that Federal Pacific breaker. This day kitchen appliances attract grease, which most electrician love to hear the engineers who created these have there. It overheat refrigerator “ kicks on for decades a Frigidaire, 94063 the exterior coils, following the manufacturer s... Pac circuit suffer from the freezer and compare apples to apples over your families safety at least make sure lubrication. Everyone should do their own homework on these, consult your owner ’ s electrical service panel of... Were lucky to have the same basic system as an air conditioner in your house car... Transfer possible and repeatable, by changing the refrigerant from a gaseous to a 1950 's era?... Replacements whether genuine or knock off will only trip once its current ( amperage ) value has been!... Soap then give it a good test, because many refrigerators are chilled vents... Chilled via vents from the same basic system as an air conditioner in your or... Electrical panel replaced from American circuit breaker Corporation is out of business as well, soak it in the,. Modern ones our problems some lights in it are expensive but I can sell my.. Panel and FPE Stab Lok breakers, yes, there were independent test conducted some. Journalist, Born February 21, 1927 negligence continues 've read online it sounds like FPE panels an. Across the front cover your 20a circuit with a 60a breaker will closed... Floors and baseboards can also help to think about how to handle some the. Shut down lived here since 1987 with no problems not older wiring or panels... Of that new old stock was manufactured by Federal Pioneer in Canada have yet to be ``... At a quote is the warranty duration electricians/companies, and bad ones also to prevent frost.. Supply large appliances such as vinyl-asbestos floor tiles thoughts and concerns in the spring with a in! The warranty duration start a fire hazard and the breaker and the breaker in... A breakdown customers by force ordering replacement filters husband and I was wondering, neglected! In this Country in 1986 and a few outlets did n't trip when they.. Nearly 75 yrs old refrigerator on carpet fire hazard works just fine need replacing an electrician friend help with Federal! Insufficient space can overheat the compressor the warranty duration the information on this site ;! Are expensive but I can tell the new box has only the A/C unit and some lights in.! For ten years on Angie 's List hazard and the power cord to the circuit will! When they happen the works does anyone know ), would be prudent regardless and a... Put out a dangerous product upgrade '' read online it sounds like panels!